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http://fuckertwashington.blogspot.com

Ladies and gentlemen, sit down. You have all been taken advantage of in the worst manipulative mental carnival imagineable.

FUD. We all know the term. Wikipedia states it as: "Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) is a tactic of rhetoric used in sales, marketing, public relations, and illiberal democracies.

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Mr. Psychopath's picture
Created by Mr. Psychopath 11 years 18 weeks ago – Made popular 11 years 18 weeks ago
Category: Community   Tags:
schestowitz's picture

schestowitz

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago

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Smear Campaign?

[To repeat a message from another item:]

I have no idea if all these attacks are coordinated or not, but regardless, I haven't a clue who "komrad" is and I see a lot of baseless accusations made against the site.

This entire smear campaign seems like an easy way out for some.

db0's picture

db0

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago

0
zerogravity's picture

zerogravity

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago

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Re: Smear Campaign?

Way to go, Roy. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

schestowitz's picture

schestowitz

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago

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If only it was true...

No, not quite. There's libel in these posts. I was going to rebut, but was advised not to.

It's very disappointing to see this as someone told me that even 1-hour-old accounts are used to promote this material (attacks against me) and demote pointers to my writings.

zerogravity's picture

zerogravity

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago

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You're doing it again

Once again, you throw the baby out with the bath water.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 29 min ago

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Mostly it's just a fan-boy backlash.

When a blogger keeps making a nuisance of himself to some big company, he's going to have some "mercenary" bloggers on his case.

I would not be surprised if there is some "Astroturf" involved just because Roy is putting out a sustained effort which doubtlessly has the attention of some of the executives in the companies he criticizes. In fact, I would be surprised if this were not the case.

Mostly, this is a "fan-boy" backlash. Inexperienced people aren't accustomed to the level of critical thinking and tolerance for constructive criticism which is needed to protect the Free Software Community from the interlopers with ulterior motives.

In the big picture, if you don't see the larger Astroturf campaign, funded by Microsoft, elements of the old media, and the political class you're not any paying attention at all.

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 25 min ago

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Really?

I would define it as "Anti-fanboyism", as in "Not making retarded articles about Microsoft."

Yes, they do things that we don't agree with. They're a PROPRIETARY COMPANY. BFD. Get over it.

I think less effort needs to go into reporting biased, shallow crap on BN, and more effort go into helping the Free Software Movement!

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago

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So you're an "anti-fan-boy"? "Anti-fanboyism" is reactionary.

I'm neither a fan-boy, nor an anti-fan-boy.

Learning disabilities are off-topic.

Microsoft has earned my scorn and distrust. I choose to remain opposed to Microsoft's monopolistic business practices, strong-arm tactics against open-standards, proprietary technology.

I'll "get over it" when my job as a web-developer has become more enjoyable by an order of magnitude because Microsoft has fallen.

I don't think you're aware of what the Free Software Movement is. You cannot be a part of it when you don't know what it's about.

zerogravity's picture

zerogravity

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago

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Maybe /you/ don't know what Free Software is about

I get the feeling that you think Free Software is about hating Microsoft.

It's not.

Grow up.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago

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Resisting those who attack freedom? Yes. Hating? Not so much.

I do want to see Microsoft suffer a large drop in mind-share and market-share. Do you think that makes me wrong?

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 28 min ago

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Define "Libel"

Mr. Schestowitz, I would like to deduce that YOUR website is full of libel. Libel in the sense that, you never back anything up with real facts. You're just using crap tactics to "scare" Free Software developers into believing what you do.

cpoliticas's picture

cpoliticas

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago

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FUDers attacks?

Well, I think this could be a new way of FUDers out there to Boycott Boycott-Novell from inside the community.

aboutblank's picture

aboutblank

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago

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Overblown Speculation

Your comment is an example of the "overblown speculation" that was mentioned in the article. I am certain this article is about: one guy ranting about the less than stellar reporting methods that are employed by Schestowitz in the Boycott Novell (BN) articles. Using this fact to imply that "this person intends to spread FUD against Boycott Novell" is just needless speculation.

Other than minor disagreements of facts presented by this writer, I agree with the overall message that is BN is exceedingly alarmist which is probably contributed by confused conclusions of the various facts.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 44 min ago

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I don't find Boycott Novell to be overly paranoid.

Maybe Roy could use to collect information a bit longer before he publishes, but I believe he's not deliberately misleading and I trust him as a source of information more than most who blog about free and "open source" software.

Those I don't trust are the ones who aren't paranoid or cynical enough to see the obvious.

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 21 min ago

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Well...

When a journalist uses actually credible sources, and doesn't cite his own website, I'll think again about BN.

schestowitz's picture

schestowitz

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago

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Dear "Mr. Psychopath"

I don't cite myself. Follow the hyperlinks. There are also external ones if you follow the route. They are contained and summarised in context.

I find it amusing that you guys are modding each other up and modding down aggressively anyone who disagrees. There are similar patterns in Digg AstroTurfs. But you won't leave sites alone, will you?

I recognise some of your usernames. Some of you work for Novell. It's funny, isn't it?

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago

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Dear "Skestowitz"

Most of your articles do indeed cite themselves. Take a look at "Microsoft went to Africa to fight ODF", and others. Extremely alarmist.

As for the folks that work for Novell, does that make them any more or less moral in voting this article up, and voting you down? Heaven forbid, these people actually LIKE their company. They have opinions? OH NO. Don't let that happen. Why not write an article about their sinfullness, and cite yourself several more times, with the occasional link to an obscure PDF on Groklaw, or a screenshot of an IRC chat.

Besides which, if this was AstroTurf, I'd be making money right now. And I'm not, which is sad to say. Ah well, I'll get money for a laptop sooner or later.
Until we meet again.
-Mr. Psychopath

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago

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Re: FSDaily users who work for Novell

"As for the folks that work for Novell, does that make them any more or less moral in voting this article up, and voting you down?" - Mr. Psychopath

The answer to that question is that it does make them or you less ethical because it's a failure to disclose a conflict of interests.

If you or others on this site do work for Novell and fail to disclose it while you attack Novell's critics, your credibility and Novell's credibility take a hit.

julianmiles's picture

julianmiles

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago

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I don't think Mr. Psychopath works for Novell

Nice try though, Roy.

I presume a bunch of us (well, I did anyway) came from this Ubuntu Forums thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=825260

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago

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That's what I figured accounts for most of the negative feedback

You guys should be less defensive of Mark Shuttleworth and Ubuntu. It's better not to have a knee-jerk reaction against critics.

You should take your cues from Mark Shuttlworth. He does a much better job as the public face of Ubuntu than anyone who gets excessively emotional and combative.

Not you in particular, but as a group. And also, it would be wise not to mix with those who may be involved in this on behalf of Novell, because Ubuntu has a much better reputation than Novell does.

This whole thing is a tempest in a tea-cup. If anything comes out of it, I suspect it will be that Mark Shuttleworth will do even more than he already does to keep good relations with people like Roy.

It would be a mistake for Mark Shuttleworth to allow a brigade of flame-warriors to create a wave of fickle popularity which eventually subsides. Ubuntu actually needs to build a stable community for sustained growth.

aboutblank's picture

aboutblank

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago

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RE: I don't find Boycott Novell to be overly paranoid.

I do agree that Roy does not intend to be misleading. I just cannot agree with the conclusions of Roy based upon the evidence that is presented. I don't mind that he references his own articles. I do mind that his articles are quite often hyperbolic speculation presented as fact.

It's alright to be suspicious and cautious of Microsoft's actions; there really is a documented modus operandi of Microsoft that shows disdain towards competition and liberty.

You should also note that a lot of the news reported has very little direct impact on the free software community. A lot of that news **only affects those that accept proprietary software**. You have to remember that Microsoft (and any other software proprietor for that matter) has very little control over your life **when you reject all proprietary software**.

The biggest weapon that MS can use against me personally is if they take up a software patent lawsuit against me. I find that possibility unlikely to occur as that action would hurt MS more than it would hurt me so I don't worry about it.

"But what about when MS uses their patent hoard as part of FUD to stop people from adopting free software?" I say that people need to learn about the travesty that is the patent system and encourage people to get rid of them. Also, when people are amoral towards proprietary software, they can easily be seduced back to using proprietary software; the only way to reject all proprietary software is to understand why it is so evil.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 hour 23 min ago

0

I agree with most of this.

But I'm a bit more afraid of software patents. I don't expect authoritarians to quit trying to eliminate freedom in general, especially when it comes to something as inherently liberating as information technology.

There's constant tension between defenders of liberty and ruthless authoritarians who seek to eliminate all forms of freedom and to whom anything other than abject obedience is considered an affront to their very existence.

I think the strategy of the authoritarian control freaks is not merely to keep control of what they have, but to eliminate even the possibility of operating computers outside their all-pervasive system of control. That is the nature of the control-freak mentality of totalitarianism.

There won't be any easily-won victory over the authoritarian tendencies of human nature.

cpoliticas's picture

cpoliticas

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago

0

Overblown speculator

Well, maybe you are right and I'm a little bit paranoid these days, but I don't know if I'm really jumping to conclusions, it's just I've seen this happening before. Only time will tell. Things doesn't need to happen the same way twice, right?

apokryphos's picture

apokryphos

11 years 18 weeks 2 days 17 min ago

0

That website has

That website has unfortunately been one person's (Roy's) podium as a long-standing source of FUD in the (or outside the) FOSS community, with gratuitously unsubstantiated remarks containing a general lack of research, wild speculations, and an irrational dislike of what's really one of the greatest and most established contributors to open source software (employing more developers to work on the Linux desktop than anyone else), Novell.

The site also attempts to break up the FOSS community by constantly putting down one of the greatest Linux distributions and its community -- openSUSE. Other targets have also been the GNOME project (and recently it seems: Ubuntu).

See the FAQ at http://opensuse.org/FAQ:Novell-MS which addresses the major issues with the deal.

schestowitz's picture

schestowitz

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago

0

OpenSUSE Board Takes on Free Software Daily

It's always nice to find members of the Board of OpenSUSE here in Free software sites, eh Francis Giannaros? Who **else** (from OpenSUSE) is playing in this sandbox?

I find it amusing that you never commented in this Web site until your little smear campaign. Proof here:

http://www.fsdaily.com/users/apokryphos/commented

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago

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Most people don't have much

Most people don't have much reason to comment on FS Daily entries, unless they're surprsing like this one. Most times, people just comment on the site.

"Oh, and he's involved with OpenSUSE, HOW CUUUTE!"

Smear tactics much, Mr. McCarthy?

boycottboycottnovell.com's picture

boycottboycottn...

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago

0

Great logic Roy ...

So, because he is an official member of the openSUSE board and posts here under a name that you recognize instead of creating another anonymous nick, he isn't allowed to link to a page that actually contains more true facts than your little propaganda site?

How about you get a bit less paranoid and start to build your claims upon facts instead of FUD & misinformation and just STFU until you acquired the necessary facts?

And no, I'm not apokryphos under a different nick, in fact I don't even use openSUSE but I'm frigging sick & tired of you constantly spamming this site with your moronic pamphlets and constant FUD campaigns against Novell, Gnome and several others projects (which is the reason I choose this nick).

Novell is one of the biggest contributors to FOSS and Gnome a great desktop enviroment. But what exactly have YOU done for FOSS except your little propaganda site that does nothing except spreading crap based on misinformation? Probably nothing ...

So please, for the love of everything cute & lovely just STFU until you can backup your silly claims with facts and go and visit some therapist to get your paranoia fixed.

Thank you.

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago

0

AMEN!

I totally agree with that.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago

0

That's bad PR for Novell.

The man from the board of openSUSE should have disclosed his identity before he began to retaliate against a critic.

Well, it sort of depends on whether or not being on the openSUSE board gets you paid.

I personally don't have any problem with SUSE except for that Novell is the company affiliated with SUSE and Microsoft is using Novell as a vehicle.

I definitely think Roy has the upper hand because he's having his real name attacked by people behind pseudonyms.

boycottboycottnovell.com's picture

boycottboycottn...

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago

0

Oh please...

Just cite where he "began to retaliate against a critic" - as in not saying the truth.

Everything he said is 100% correct so I don't see a problem with this at all.

Regarding your aversion against Novell I just point you, once more, to http://en.opensuse.org/FAQ:Novell-MS and suggest that you either use BSD or Solaris if you desperately want to avoid anything created by Novell employees. And since this probably wont work out you have to write your own OS then - have fun with that :P

Regarding name vs. pseudonym I don't see your point. How would I know that his name is correct and what the heck is "Balzac" and how do you want to prove that my nick is not my name (given the last one might be more obvious ;))

On the other hand there is one strange thing I noticed with Roy & his crew: all hist "stories" are just based on vague hand waving & pointing in the general direction but once you ask them to tell you the exact facts upon which they base their claims it gets very quiet.

Anyways: http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2008/02/xkcdwrongoninternet.jpg

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago

0

This is a pseudonym, but I'm just an opinionated individual.

Also, I'm happy to share my true identity in this case. I'm Paul Gaskin.

Nice to meet you, boycottboycottnovell.com

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago

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There's one modification I'm going to make to the Drigg module

We can all see how we've rated these postings, but we can't see who has rated our comments.

I'm going to modify Drigg to allow users to view who is giving the positive and negative feedback in the comments.

I'm actually kind of happy about this controversy because I'm rooting for Free Software Daily and Free Software Magazine to gain a higher readership.

I'm going to be using the same great Drupal module created by Tony Mobily of Free Software Magazine. It really is a very useful module.

apokryphos's picture

apokryphos

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago

0

There's no secret of who I

There's no secret of who I am. I've participated in the KDE and openSUSE community for a few years now. My nickname on IRC and all Linux forums is always "apokryphos". I state this nickname clearly on my website; I do not post under any other nickname with regard to Linux matters. See http://francis.giannaros.org for more information.

I don't get paid for being on the openSUSE board -- it's a volunteer effort (I'm a student). I'm part of the openSUSE community.

So despite Roy's attempt at trying to once again create a conspiracy, there is no secret about who I am.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago

0

Well there is a relationship between Novell and OpenSuse.

I went to #OpenSolaris on Freenode to discuss some things and was confronted by similar rudeness by some of the people there.

Even though the moderator in question didn't work for Sun Microsystems, it didn't reflect well on Sun.

I was confronted by some hot-heads in #gsoc (Google Summer of Code Project) on Freenode after engaging in some discussion there. The people there didn't work for Google, but their combativeness doesn't reflect well on Google.

Criticism is good, so long as it's not insincere or a deliberate attempt to deceive others.

As far as I can tell, Roy is not trying to deceive anyone and the level of combativeness to protect the reputation of either openSUSE or Ubuntu is not necessary.

Today you should be reinforcing Roy's right to his opinions (even if they happen to be mistaken in some cases) rather than joining the knee-jerk fan-boy backlash.

I don't know why anyone would bother to defend the reputation of Novell or Microsoft from Roy's criticism.

apokryphos's picture

apokryphos

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago

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One Reason

I'll give you one reason: they have consistently been (for many years) one of the biggest contributors to free and open source software ever. I take it you use the Linux desktop? Well they employ more actual free software developers to work on the Linux _desktop_, day in day out, than anyone else. They are the ones actually concentrating on improving Linux and making it accessible to the mainstream.

Developers to work on projects like X, the kernel, KDE, GNOME, OpenOffice.org, ALSA, GCC, you name it.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 hour 7 min ago

0

That's a materialistic point of view.

I don't care about the quantity or quality of software contributions from Novell. When they embraced the selective indemnification from software patent claims by Microsoft as a means of coercing me to buy a license, I have no patience for them.

I refuse to be taxed by those who claim software ideas as their exclusive property. My freedom to have ideas and write these ideas as software is under attack upon by a conspiracy of people who recoil from the very idea of freedom.

If they don't want me to have any exposure to their ideas, they can keep their ideas to themselves. Don't distribute your code if you don't want it reverse-engineered.

But don't try to stake out concepts as exclusively belonging to you, and then levy a tax on everyone else who might have the same idea, perhaps even before the software patent claimant had the idea.

It's much better to rely on innovation and keeping trade-secrets, not on attacking others to prevent them from innovating themselves.

lukaz's picture

lukaz

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago

0

He doesn't work for Novell

> Well, it sort of depends on whether or not being on the openSUSE
> board gets you paid.

He doesn't work for Novell, he is apparently a volunteer openSUSE developer.

I think that makes his opinion count a whole lot more than yours /or/ Roy's, especially since afaict neither of you actually do ANYTHING for the Free Software community at all.

Balzac's picture

Balzac

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago

0

Tranquilo, lukaz...

We all have our own ways of participating.

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago

0

Follow-Up?

Seems like the writer of the site went on a super-tirade follow-up.

http://fuckertwashington.blogspot.com/2008/06/roy-sketzowitz-crybaby.html

Mr. Psychopath's picture

Mr. Psychopath

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago

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Related Article

http://www.fsdaily.com/Community/An_open_letter_to_Mr_Roy_Schestowitz_fr...

Looks like the Satirists are moving in on it, meaning this debacle might just fade into obscurity sometime soon...

admin's picture

admin

11 years 18 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago

0

Lets focus on news and less on fighting each other

I would just like to urge you to turn your attention to the fact this site is for free software related news.

If you don't like an item that's posted just use the little button with the "-" sign on it to vote it down. Let's avoid making all these personal attacks. And to those who think they can get away with multiple accounts: I know who you are! I suggest you stop now so that I don't have to start banning IPs. If you can find some real friends to support your opinion great but don't bring all of your pretend friends along to the debate.

motters's picture

motters

11 years 18 weeks 4 hours 51 min ago

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In support of Boycott Novell

Although I'm a regular user of Mono/MonoDevelop on Ubuntu, I enjoy reading the Boycott Novell blog and find the articles to be on the whole intelligently written and worth consideration.

As a free software developer (mostly of robotics/computer vision applications) it's worth remaining aware of the potential threats to freedom which could arise in the near future. Certainly the degree of deviousness with which companies in the IT industry (such as MS/Novell or others) can behave should not be underestimated. Free software still remains disruptive to the business models of many mainstream software companies, so they may have a vested interest in trying to ensure that it doesn't succeed.

From all the negative voting which I can see here I suspect that some of these individuals may not actually be free software supporters.

apokryphos's picture

apokryphos

11 years 17 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago

0

BN/FUD is detrimental to the free software community

BN is not supportive of free software at all -- in fact, Roy consistently works to break up the community with continuous FUD on his website. I simply can't stress how badly researched and how wildly speculative the majority of statements on that website are. It's really something. Reading articles there to find out actual genuine information would be a terribly tedious task. I recommend reading things like LWN.net, Linux.com, etc. instead.

It's not some abstract evil company that "doesn't want it to succeed" (whatever that means); most of the people commenting here are _individuals_ or volunteers to certain projects (such as myself) who are really just unbelievably tired of the FUD spread throughout the Internet from Roy on various different mediums.

Roy and that website are detrimental to the free software community; it's these "poisonous people" (see the Google video on this -- this term is well-defined) who consistently hinder the free software community. You will note that, as the video warns, the most troublesome and problematic people are frequently those not even contributing to the project (in this case, free software), but just those who have their mindset stuck on being argumentative, megalomaniac, and unbelievably biased to their cause.

TtfnJohn's picture

TtfnJohn

11 years 17 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago

0

I'm kinda surprised this took so long

I've been a semi-regular reader of BN for a long time now, almost since it started up.

First off let me say that Roy does focus on issues that are important to FLOSS.

After reading for a while, though, one can pretty much guess at what he'll say and how he'll say it as the commentaries tend to repeat themselves over and over and over again.

Now, having said all of that, let me say that Roy does himself no service, nor FLOSS, with what has become a propaganda like repeating of the same charges and same conclusions over and over again,

Rather like "four legs good, two legs bad"!

Not to mention annoying "features" of the site like AJAX popups over every link which make it impossible, at times, to finish reading the sentence

I also need to point out that Roy needs to understand terms like "in context". That doesn't mean lifting a sentence or two from another blog or news story that supports your thesis. It's just too easy to check these things, you know.

I'm writing a lot of this from the perspective of a former journalist who lived (and still does) from the rule of check, check and check again before I published something that was anything but commentary. (I left that profession before the dawn of the Web so I doubt you'll find anything I did anywhere.)

Similar rules tend to apply to academics and students. Roy's site says he's the latter so I assume he knows all about that.

What I mostly read on BN are screeds against the "villian" of the day even if two of them will somehow be linked to an event they had no part in.

Equally, from the posts here (hello Balzac) there is also a tendency to blame employees of Novell, for example, for the deal with Microsoft which they had no part of.

What surprises me is that a backlash at BN from the FLOSS community took so long to get going.

The poorly written and researched commentaries (not articles) have all the accuracy of a shotgun at a range of 200 yards and tend to damage people and things which aren't part of the issue Roy is trying to comment on.

After a while, if you focus on the evil troll in the closet sooner or later everything looks like your troll whether it exists or not.

Similarly, after a while to a cop in a car eventually everyone is a suspect because those are the only people they encounter on work days.

Roy, you're trapped in both syndromes.

As time goes on you're becoming more and more predictable and less and less believable.

Some of what you take on is important but when people slide onto your site and see the same rant over and over again with minor changes then you stop being taken seriously.

If I were, say, from a firm trying to sell a proprietary solution to a customer considering Linux or BSD I'd start off with what I consider valuable about my product and then point out that FLOSS isn't good because of some of the wing nuts out there.

Then, I'd quote liberally from your site. Sale made.

(For what it's worth, I don't do that nor would I ever because that would require that I actually believed that the proprietary system is actually better than FLOSS and the LAMP stack. Which I don't.)

Advice: Get your facts straight before you write another commentary. Do not treat those who disagree with what you write or your conclusions as the enemy. For the most part they aren't. They just don't agree.

More advice: You and your supporters here have repeatedly said that your targets can't take criticism. Guess what? From the responses here I'd say you and your supporters don't do well at it either. In fact, worse. If you're gonna throw poorly targeted punches expect to get a few back in return.

Roy, as long as you don't fall victim to the monster in every closet syndrome, you have an important perspective to bring to the table. Lately you've fallen victim to that.

Hence, the backlash.

Learn from it and stop being so damned defensive.

Oh, for your information the codec licensor Ubuntu uses is also used by Mandriva, available for Fedora and I don't know how many others. And it ain't Microsoft. It's also clearly marked as being non-free.

Finally, I really doubt that Microsoft, Ubuntu or Novell lose much in the way of sleep over BN.

ttfn

John

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