"No. I think we should not call GNU as GNU/Linux. The Debian GNU system that i have has 1000s of programs. In those i am daily used 10-15 programs. Its inconvenient to say GNU/Linux/Abiword/gnumeric/mysql/gtkmm/…. So i like to call it simply GNU. Linux kernel is an important work But it Just another program ..."
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aboutblank
16 years 1 day 11 hours 23 min ago
Just GNU is wrong
To call a GNU/Linux system just GNU is plain wrong. The GNU system by itself implies that the system is using the GNU kernel which is GNU Hurd. Anybody that has programmed towards both Linux and Hurd would know that these are different programming environments; they may be similar because of POSIX compatibility but they remain different. It is very possible to program towards GNU/Linux and have that program fail on GNU/Hurd and vice versa. This is why RMS stresses that you use GNU/Linux as according to him, Linux by itself is not an operating system and GNU without any kernel (like Linux or Hurd) is pretty useless. They both deserve an equal mention but GNU deserves first mention because of its older age.
Gnumeric, MySQL, gtkmm, and KDE are not part of the operating system as they are not a mandatory part of the operating system. These are application libraries and application programs. Such programs don't need any mention as part of an operating system; it is possible to have a fully functional system without them.
Rhapsody
16 years 1 day 10 hours 20 min ago
Agreed
Why has this article been modded up? As is pointed out in the comments at the article's page, this is not in any way a new argument. It's GNU/Linux because without both the GNU userland components and Linux kernel, you wouldn't have an operating system. The same can't be said of X11, GNOME, Firefox, or whatever else you care to mention. All of them can be substituted or removed and you'll still have an operating system that can run many good programs.
My own argument against using "GNU/Linux" so often is simply how cumbersome it is to say. Next to "Windows" or "Mac OS", "GNU/Linux" has a strange and, let's face it, pretty nerdy sound to it. If I may make a comparison, "GNU/Linux" is the free software name for my operating system, but "Linux" is the open source name for it. I prefer free software to open source, but needs must sometimes.
Balzac
16 years 18 hours 14 min 36 sec ago
I modded the article up.
I modded it up because I'm glad they asked the question.
I agree with you guys about the naming issue. Calling GNU/Linux just "GNU" would not acknowledge the Linux Kernel. That would be *almost* but not quite as offensive as calling GNU/Linux "Linux".
I'd prefer to have a distro which I could call GNU, but I'm not ready to run just GNU/Hurd yet. Not saying I won't switch in the future because people who call it "Linux" tend to get on my nerves and I would be willing to sacrifice a lot to not be a part of the Linux community.
Freedom first, last and everywhere in between!
akf
16 years 1 day 6 hours 1 min ago
Just GNU not less wrong than just Linux
I modded this article up, not because calling it just GNU is right, but it is definitely not less wrong, than just calling it Linux. This wrong is so widespread, that it really was a relief to see someone overstepping the border from the other side. ;-)
@aboutblank: Programming for GNU/HURD and for GNU/Linux is not just similar because of POSIX compatibility, but mainly because both use the GNU libc (GLIBC).
aboutblank
16 years 21 hours 19 min 30 sec ago
That is true. A fair amount
That is true. A fair amount of POSIX is also provided by the OS kernels. Linux implements some POSIX specified system calls just like the Hurd.
bblackmoor
16 years 1 day 3 hours 56 min ago
No, we don't.
"Gnu/Linux" is absurd. Yes, GNU has provided useful tools for Linux. So has KDE. So has Sun. So has Apache.
It's "Linux". Get over it.
Balzac
16 years 1 day 3 hours 20 min ago
Wrong bblackmoor.
People like you make me want to switch to GNU/Hurd. I would be willing to do away with a lot of very useful functionality just to avoid being a part of the same software community as you.
aboutblank
16 years 23 hours 44 min 7 sec ago
Sponsor some development
You don't have to do away with functionality if you invest your own resources to get a free program to work to your requirements. If you can find people willing to share the cost of development, you don't have to burden the cost yourself. I am personally investing a lot of time studying operating systems development so that I can spend my own effort to get GNU + other programs running on my machines.
Balzac
16 years 21 hours 39 min 57 sec ago
I'm really glad to hear you're doing that.
I've made modest financial contributions to the FSF, but recently I quit my job and my income declined, so I've missed some payments.
I'm willing to spend some time working on GNU directly. I want to be part of a software community which is uncompromising on user freedom.
Lately, I've been feeling more and more uncomfortable using the Linux component of GNU/Linux.
aboutblank
16 years 23 hours 50 min 30 sec ago
RMS is Stubborn
KDE and Apache are not part of the Operating System as they are application programs and not operating system programs. RMS says that GNU was intended to be a complete operating system but the GNU kernel is not quite complete and so, not many people use Hurd with their GNU system. RMS says that Linux by itself is not an operating system, it is one part of an operating system so together with the GNU OS (and without the Hurd), GNU/Linux provides a full operating system.
RMS would never "get over it" because of his nature -- he will correct anything that he deems incorrect. That is why he started the free software movement as he found it wrong for people to live in helplessness and division under proprietary software. He also will correct the peoples' usage of the term Linux to refer to the base system.
Balzac
16 years 21 hours 59 min 18 sec ago
RMS is not a push-over.
His disagreeable attitude is one of his greatest qualities. This is what has enabled him to disagree with so many fools over the years.
Every time I hear someone say "lets agree to disagree", I say "no, I'll disagree to agree".
J.B.Nicholson-Owens
16 years 23 hours 26 min 12 sec ago
Valuing one's software freedom.
The argument "Linux is an established name - “nobody” knows GNU." is entertaining in its circularity: by this token, we can make GNU/Linux an "established" name by continuing to use that name, all the while giving credit to both GNU and the Linux kernel. Establishing something that stands for freedom sounds like a good idea to me so long as we can also remind people of why freedom matters. So perhaps we should take this respondent's advice but set aside their intent. After all, upon hearing the name "GNU" someone might ask us what GNU is, thus giving us the opportunity to introduce them to the concept of software freedom. My experience is that people will listen if you speak forthrightly to them and clearly explain why freedom matters.
enterthepig
16 years 22 hours 42 min 23 sec ago
GNU/linux is a mouthful
When writing the name of the OS down I always write GNU/linux but when I am talking to people saying "GNU slash linux" is really quite a mouthful, so I tend to just say GNU. But that's just me.
Balzac
16 years 21 hours 41 min 54 sec ago
I say "GNU slash Linux" or "GNU/Linux".
I'm looking forward to more Hurd development. I refer to GNU/Hurd as GNU, although I think you referring to "GNU/Linux" as GNU is more valid than all the people who call it "Linux".
jagadees
16 years 13 hours 10 min 6 sec ago
Think in the perspective of user
we cannot think of a situation where there is no kernel. Also we cannot think of a situation where there is no BIOS, no device drivers, no CPU, no electricity etc. That kind of thought will never going to end.
Important thing is about freedom and how a user sees a computer as whole.
for example, think that i brought a washing machine. the important thing that i care for is my cloths, soap, water and electricity. i don’t care whether there is a gearbox with big list of features or a high end embedded program etc. its the concern of the manufacturer.
i am not reducing the importance of kernel program. But its the time we the free software people think beyond a developer perspective. If you ask an ordinary user to show his computer. I think more than 60% will show their monitor. (just a guess. didn’t done any survey !). for ordinary user its hi/her data and program to manipulate that data are important than anything else.
I feel that free software community is missing that perspective. we need to put more focus on ordinary user (more intuitive way of doing things) and better documentation etc.